Adam:
Sam Anderson, it is very good to see you again. We have been rapping. You basically ran GearJunkie and AllGear’s newsroom for years, yeah?

Sam:
Yeah, it was. I wanna say 20 to 24 months. The project kind of lasted somewhere around in there.

Adam:
Your final and biggest project is what brings us here today. It was a really compelling story and we’re doing this editor’s take format for the podcast. And I knew that this would be a really good one, a really good excuse to get you back here to talk to us about it, but also really compelling and, I think, timely. So, the story you wrote was “B Corp Gone Bad: One Company’s Feudal Fight Against a Beneficent Giant.” And before we even get started, can you tell us, for anybody that doesn’t know, what is a B Corp and why would a company want to be?

Sam:
So, B Corps are benefit corporations, is the shorthand they’re using. A benefit corporation is a legal designation in which a company basically enters into voluntarily. What it does is it binds the company to certain responsibilities in terms of its ethical decisions, its transparency towards its customers, its mission, and the way it carries out that mission. And, kind of cascading from there into kind of your good workplace practices, solid environmental practices. 

These are kind of the goals of the benefit corporation’s legal structure. The nonprofit entity that certifies these things and doesn’t have to, you can seek a benefit corporation status without going through B Corp, the nonprofit. But the nonprofit is there to basically serve as a third-party vetter if you see as a company that you would like help with this process.

Adam:
Okay, so I think that’s a good foundational understanding. So with that, what did your story report? And what did you find?

Sam:
So, where we started with this whole thing was when we got the news that Chris King Precision Components, which is a small bicycle component manufacturer out of Portland, Oregon, was actually forgoing its B Corp status, which it had earned in 2018. The company was deciding not to recertify. This caught us off guard, especially in our cycling department, where our cycling editor, Seiji Ishii, having the connections he had at the time, was really surprised that Chris King would make this decision. 

Because King, with about a 40- to 50-year history, really is kind of the model of your responsible manufacturer, especially in the cycling industry, which can kind of be notoriously wasteful, kind of by due process. You know, you have your carbon fiber waste, everything that goes into R&D of cycling parts, and kind of just what that creates tends to be a fair amount of waste. 

Now, King, on the other hand, has been really as close to zero waste as it possibly could for its entire history. They started in the late ‘70s when its namesake founder was working at a hospital, I think he was mopping floors, literally at this medical component manufacturing, medical equipment manufacturing facility. 

I started to realize that the bearings, that they actually were just throwing away from — I think it was either, you know, manufacturing drops or what wasn’t medical grade. or what was already worn out from parts that were already used that were gonna throw away — were actually better than anything on the market at the time in the bicycle world. And so it started from there. 

Their facility now is pretty impressive. They have strict kind of recycling rules. It runs on this crazy water-cooled and water-heated system, where the entire factory, like there’s no air cooling for any of their machines or anything. They’re making a lot, like they’re taking bar stock and they’re making steel tubes, they’re making hubs, they’re making headsets. There’s a lot of kind of subtractive manufacturing. And so really, I guess to make a long story short there, Chris King, strictly, strictly environmentally responsible, trying to be as zero waste as they possibly can as a company. Kind of always have been. 

The fact that they for some reason were no longer interested in registering as a B Corp surprised us. We did a little bit of digging and it turned out that King had become frustrated with the way that B Corp kind of interacted with them throughout their recertification effort. It can be costly, it can be very time-intensive, and they essentially wound up, I mean, I think the quote from… Kirby, the general manager there at Chris King, was that what they were doing was beyond what B Corp was working with. 

Their standards were already past what B Corp was working with, and they would rather just reinvest the money and the time spent in their own company. That’s what started it.

Adam:
So, as part of your story, I mean, you showed there’s video in your story of … you mentioned milling and manufacturing all these steel and aluminum parts. They’re capturing a lot of those shavings like it is very much as close to a closed-loop system as I’ve seen. And granted, I haven’t I haven’t seen a ton of it. So I’m curious. Why didn’t they get an immediate rubber stamp for approval?

Sam:
Yeah, the main place that they found friction and that they just couldn’t get on the same page with B Corp was that for recertification, B Corp really focuses on improvement. It was tough for Chris King to demonstrate improvement. Now, you know, improvement can come in, in any metric, right? You know, if you start with, you know, let’s say you start with a … you are, for instance, a landscaping company and it starts out and you’re wasting just pallets and pallets of sod. Every summer because you leave the pallets next to the job site, the sod dries out, it turns brittle and it dies and you can’t use it. 

B Corp would look at that and say, yeah, you need to improve on that. If you could waste less sod and demonstrate that you were doing so on your recertification effort, that would count in your favor. King struggled with this because, again, since the late ‘70s, before sustainability, especially in manufacturing, was really even a concept in kind of the general corporate business lexicon. 

Again, they started from a zero-waste ethic. And that’s, it’s really right in there. They say it’s built into their DNA, which is kind of cliché, but it really sort of is. I mean, if you look at the history of the company and what they, how they set themselves up to do what they do. So anyway, like you said, Adam, they pick up as much as they possibly can to their aluminum steel shavings from the factory floor. They’re able to press that into these pucks that are better able to, it’s easier to recycle those than the shavings. 

They’re even going as far as to not use hydraulic cutting fluid and instead use canola oil, which you can reuse more times. It’s better for your workers’ health. Obviously it’s better for the environment. Since they’d been doing all this for such a long time, they couldn’t demonstrate improvement. But B Corp, and again, this is all from my conversations with Chris King. 

B Corp refused to comment on Chris King or their interactions with Chris King on a policy basis. However, the rub seemed to be from the King side that demonstrating improvement was something that they couldn’t get past.

Adam:
One of the … by itself, I think that is intriguing and I’ve been your editor and I find that intriguing ish, right? But there is a component here that kind of pushes this over that line. and that’s the company Nespresso, which I think virtually everybody is aware of. And the real friction in this story comes from the fact that Chris King is not qualified for a B Corp. Nespresso is qualified. How does that happen?

Sam:
That’s a good question that we…

Adam:
Thank you.

Sam:
See, behind the mic there for a reason, Adam. How does that happen? So really, a lot of people ask that question, especially right when it happened. We were not the only … we’d be far from the only people who were surprised that Nespresso suddenly merited the status of a benefit corporation. And again, which is something that started … benefit corporations have now been around for about a decade and a half, started in around 2007. And the system was really kind of set up to really hold businesses accountable. 

Now, with Nespresso, that’s really questionable because they’ve had really pretty strong, they’ve entertained pretty strong allegations of child labor in their supply chain — that really kind of remain open questions and are generally substantiated. Even in some of the reports, if you go into B Corp’s reports from what they call the B Impact Assessment, if you go into those reports, the child labor concerns are substantiated and not denied by Nespresso. 

Not only that, there’s the fact that Forbes estimated at one point that one out of every five cups of coffee served in the world was a Nespresso cup of coffee. A lot of those were poured via Keurigs and in out of K-cups, which are obviously single-use aluminum containers that are notoriously pollutant. The way to get around to the back to the question, the way that Nespresso achieved B Corp status, is essentially that it scored enough points in the B-Impact assessment to basically get over the hurdle of being included. 

Now, you can score points in a lot of different metrics. This is another area B Corp has really fallen under criticism, is that you can score pretty highly in one category, and really not score any points in another. Like, there’s no way to score negative points. There is a way to get a zero on the test, you could say get a zero in your environmental impact score if you scored really well in your … where they evaluate your mission statement or when they evaluate your workplace practices, then you can kind of make up for it. 

That being said, when I looked at Nespresso’s scores, they were kind of average across the board. Nothing particularly stood out, except for again, yeah, some of these pretty alarming notes in the background.

Adam:
Yeah, and I think I think it’s striking because of the comparison I could I could be convinced that a company like Nespresso from wherever it started to where it is now gained enough or has made enough changes to merit being a B Corp. It’s what … it’s weird. When the Chris Kings of the world no longer do and I’m curious, did you reach anybody at the B Corp nonprofit who could attest to what was going on?

Sam:
Yes, a spokesperson did eventually get back to us, and I can’t now remember. This is a month back. I can’t remember who commented to us it was …

Adam:
Bedsaul.

Sam:
No, oh, so you meant at King. I thought you meant it… I thought…

Adam:
Oh, no, at B Corp.

Sam:
You meant at the B Corp…

Adam:
At B Corp. I’m going through the sources in your story.

Sam:
Okay, got it, yeah. So yeah, Kirby Bedsaul is the GM there at Chris King Components. And this could be just an instance of editing because I’m just trying to refresh myself on the fly. Ah. And it should be because actually, this person’s position is important. Their title actually …

Adam:
Silverman.

Sam:
Silverman. That’s right. Yeah. Who was she? They, uh, when I left the company, they wiped my, uh, they, they s- summarily wiped my emails. Sarah Silverman, right. B lab marketing and communications director, Sarah Silverman commented to us. Um, What she said was that, first of all, B Corp, B Lab is the nonprofit that runs it, but B Corp cannot comment on any company that is not currently affiliated as a B Corp. So that included King because of their past status. being that policy was the case, she did kind of enlighten me on, I guess kind of the arc of the project itself, started by two former executives in And One, actually, the basketball shoe and apparel company.

Adam:
Oh, that goes back.

Sam:
Exactly right. Yeah, who’d become disillusioned. uh, in the way back, um, by I think like Academy sports and outdoors, maybe acquired, um, and one at a certain point. Anyway, there was an acquisition that really disillusioned them. Um, so they went out on their own. They said, yeah, this is, um, You know, this is, this is just bullshit like corporate, you know, business as usual, we want to change it. Uh, what they started out doing was working with small companies, um, to really, to really lock in, um, their ethics, their methods, their mission statements, they knew that they would scale, um, as, as the, as the group that they were working with just expanded, right? The pool of companies, um, expanded. Now it’s to the point where they’re scaled to, yes, where they’re kind of getting in the ring with global giants of commerce. That being said, it’s in a way, it’s, you know, and again, Silverman, their marketing and communications director, did speak to this. Uh, she did say, yes, it’s, it’s something we’re evaluating that as we grow, we do encounter like really deeper concerns, um, with bigger companies that are harder, uh, that are harder to pin down. Um, so it’s, yes, it’s something that they’re engaging with. Um, at the same time, it’s, uh, you know, I guess another side of that coin is, well, How do you really change something, you know, if you’re not gonna go toe to toe with the giants that are really determining where we’re headed, how are you really gonna make an impact?

Adam:
I think this all begs the question, why is it important? Why would a Chris King or an espresso or anyone else want to be a B Corp? Why does it matter? Why go through the effort?

Sam:
And that too is a good one.

Adam:
Awesome,

Sam:
Because

Adam:
good at this.

Sam:
there are a lot of reasons why as a company controlled by stakeholders. Right? You know, it could be sheer benevolence toward humankind and the planet itself, right? Is the

Adam:
Let’s hope

Sam:
ideal

Adam:
so. That’d

Sam:
outcome.

Adam:
be awesome.

Sam:
Yeah, right? You truly want, yeah, you truly want, yeah, your local environment and the planet at large as an extension of that to thrive and everyone you work for, everyone who works for you to have a great life. Sure, that’s a possible motivator. You know, another tangent of that is, well, that’s a great story to tell, isn’t it? And… It’s again, kind of one thing that B Corp certification costs money. Um, each, each company we spoke with, uh, as we reported this story, acknowledged that like, yep, this costs money. It takes time. Um, a lot of people in the company have to engage with it. And so yeah, not wasting, like not being a wasteful, just kind of corporate, um, you know, corporate enterprise in the way that they usually exist is gonna affect your bottom line. So do you have to sell the story? Do you have to tell the story of the fact that you’re a responsible business and you’re a force for good and you’re a benevolent benefactor upon us all by basically branding yourself and selling your shit? Yes, that’s generally beneficial. Is it beneficial to have that little icon with the B inside the circle that we’re generally now familiar with at the store? I think in… .. in more cases than not for your average consumer, probably. You know, you’re a typical millennial. I live here in Austin, Texas, and, you know, going to Target is like just a, you know, it’s millennial paradise. And I think there’s, yeah, we’re, a lot of, many among us are, I think, at least concerned about where we’re headed, if not like fearful or condemning. And so, It can, uh…

Adam:
Terrified in some cases.

Sam:
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, it’s not abjectly terrified. Uh, we’re at least maybe, you know, um, comparing… you know, comparing labels next to each other and thinking, all right, if it’s, you know, maybe it’s 60 cents more, but it’s got the circle B emblem, like, okay, like it must mean something. If it goes down my drain into the river, maybe there won’t be a three-eyed fish, you know? Like,

Adam:
Yeah.

Sam:
so yeah, is it worth it to the bottom line? of a company responsible to its stakeholders and to its board of directors and its funding sources to market the story that it’s responsible? Yes. Yeah. And I’m confident saying that’s the case.

Adam:
So if you’re correct, and I would assume that given the choice between buying from a regular corporation or company and something that has the circle be most people, I think reasonably assuming you know it’s not vastly more expensive would choose the circle be. After reporting this story. Is that how consumers should continue to think? Should they look for the circle B or is there, should they have a slightly different mindset?

Sam:
It’s tough because, I mean, a lot of us are just pressed for our own time for

Adam:
Mm-hmm

Sam:
how to make purchasing decisions. You know, I don’t have kids and I can’t even imagine, like, you know, with me it’s just when I’m in Target it’s just me. I can’t, and you know, I have a full-time job and everything, but I can’t imagine having having a full-time job and two part-time jobs, or three part-time jobs, and a family with children, et cetera. Honestly, I’m strongly impressed at the pressures that most people, especially American society today, are able to withstand. So that being said, if you know if If your money is stretched, if you’re on a budget, and most of us are, and if you’re on a time budget with your purchasing, that all impacts your purchasing decisions, I think maybe, the best thing I could think is, apart from just looking for the Circle B emblem on anything you buy, Take a second and go to the website, go to the B Lab website. It’s something simple. It’s just B, yeah, bcorporation.net. You can look up any of these companies. A lot of the research that they’ve done is available. You don’t even necessarily have to comb the research. You know, you can look at the scores. You can find similar companies from there that are doing similar things and have these slight differences. Yeah, I think safe to say that for me, after kind of doing this digging, the B Corp certification, the nonprofit certification through B Corp as a third party is, Is is not to be taken at face value across all of the companies that now interacts with which is over 7 000. I mean As small as rumple who we talked to rumple ceo they have uh They have a fluctuating staff of between 12 and 25 employees You know he said And then as big as Nespresso, who again, one out of every five coffee cups served in the world per Forbes. Like, when you’re in that pool, I think it’s really hard to find an apples to apples comparison based on an emblem that can be used as marketing and branding.

Adam:
So before we wrap up, we’re gonna go, I’m gonna ask you to go a little bit off script here. And based on the conversations you had with B lab, and all the other brands you spoke with, going forward, do you see? Do you see this? What looks like a discrepancy? Do you see this? Getting fixed? and we get to a place where the companies that deserve to be B Corps and want to be B Corps are those things? Or could this disparity between bigger companies that can fill out the forms better, do they continue to become the B Corps and maybe more of these other companies slip through the cracks? Like I said, it’s off script, so.

Sam:
Yeah, thanks for the caveat. Yeah, that’s a tough one, Adam. And I think it really, I think it’s really going to boil down to, to me, it’s going to boil down to, I think pressure on. B Corp on the nonprofit itself, it’s going to entail pressure from media, pressure from stakeholders as in those of us who make purchasing decisions based on the B Corp emblem. If we’re not satisfied with the results, then B Corp needs to know. And that feedback needs to occur. I think it’s important that there is at least a standard. There’s a standard now that companies like an espresso… can be held responsible to. That’s good. We obviously want less child labor in the world. Anything that leads to less of that, good. Anything that leads to less pollution, good. Yeah, I really think that being said, I’m curious to see what like a Chris King is gonna do and where they’re gonna, where they’re gonna reinvest the money that they would have spent becoming B Corp certified. I think it’s a loss for B Corp, especially because small companies, ideas can come out of small companies. maybe more so than in kind of your bigger unwieldy corporate environments. Um, you know, you can put ideas to the test in a small company in a way that you just can’t in a big corporation. Um, there’s, you know, the, the impulse for change can just be faster and stronger from the ground up as B Corp grows it absolutely, um, again, from everything that I could tell from my reporting needs to do better, um, by the Chris Kings of the world, by the Rumpels of the world. And hopefully they can, as they continue to scale.

Adam:
The story is B Corp gone bad. One company’s feudal fight against a beneficent giant. We’ll link it in the show notes. Sam, damn good to see you. Your byline is welcome anytime.

Sam:
It was a delight, Adam. I can’t wait for the next time. And yeah, thanks for years of heavy edits. Here’s to many more.

Adam:
That’s awesome. Good to see you buddy. That is the gear junkie editors take podcast and we are out!