Adam:
Well, well, look who’s back on the humble GearJunkie podcast, Courtney Dauwalter. It’s great to see you.

Courtney:
It’s great to see you. How’s it going?

Adam:
Spectacular, as you can see, our podcast has gotten a tinge more professional. Even though I’m recording from my bedroom office here. Yeah, we’ve got like the bells and whistles.

Courtney:
It’s very cool. Congratulations.

Adam:
Um, so first of all, how are you feeling?

Courtney:
I’m feeling pretty good. Yeah, enjoying summer, that’s for sure.

Adam:
Yeah, I would imagine you are. It’s been a good summer to be Courtney Dauwalter.

Courtney:
Haha!

Adam:
OK, so you have to … I have notes here and I’m going to run through them. I need you to check my math.

Courtney:
Oh boy.

Adam:
So you won Hardrock. In so doing, you set the counterclockwise record, the overall course record, which you also previously held about a month ago. you won Western States, smashed an 11-year-old record in winning that, and when you combine those two records, you now set that new combined record. Am I… did I get that right?

Courtney:
I think that’s correct. Yeah. Oh.

Adam:
Who do you think you are and what are you doing?

Courtney:
My gosh. I going into this year, I was super fired up to just try this double. I wanted to finish both races, was my big goal because I was so curious about what it would feel like to do Western States, which is a hundred-mile race that’s pretty fast, pretty hot, pretty runnable. Three weeks later, do Hardrock 100. A high-altitude, more, you know, hiking-based race. Lots and lots of climbing, big mountain terrain.

So, my driver for the summer was just like, can I finish them both? And what does the 3 weeks in between look like? I had never tried to turn something around so quickly for two races that I was, you know, targeting as like I want to show up as prepared as possible for both of them.

Adam:
So did this… did your performance surprise you?

Courtney:
Yeah, yeah, I mean when going into it, I had no expectations of place or time or records or anything like that. I honestly was just like, I wanted to leave it all out there in both of them, treat them each as individual races. And like, they were my only race of the summer, but then obviously stack them together as well as possible with playing around with that recovery.

Adam:
So showing up to the start line at Hardrock, how, I mean, you obviously, Western States, yay, I did great, this is awesome. And then you show up at Hardrock — how are you feeling going into that?

Courtney:
I thought I was feeling good. I, um, 3 weeks went by really fast

Adam:
Yeah.

Courtney:
In between those races. And I was getting out for, by the, you know, middle of the second week, I was getting out for jogs on the trails again, you know, trying to get my mobility back, get my blood flowing again and was starting to feel like kind of normal. But I was also maxing out at like, you know, an hour or an hour and a half run.

So, going into Hardrock, standing on the start line, it was like, well, maybe I will get this first hour and a half of the run done and then start to suffer. But I knew that I was like, I had done as much as I could to recover, given what I knew about the. you know, method.

Adam:
So I got to give a shout out to Meghan Hicks and our sister site, iRunFar because I cribbed a lot of notes from their coverage of Hardrock in her interview with you. And in that interview, you talked with her about how much fatigue and pain there was like right off the bat. Can you can you tell me more about how it was feeling in that race? Was it all just pain?

Courtney:
Yeah, so I started thinking I’m going to get this hour, hour and a half, you know, feeling like a normal training run, and then we’ll see what happens. But instead it was, they said, go. We started jogging through town to start the race and immediately everything just felt that, you know, heavy, lethargic feeling. My legs were tired, my arms were even tingling, like swinging them was too much work. And… and my brain almost right away was like resisting what we were about to do. So I think that I wasn’t as recovered as I had hoped to be or had thought I was, because that fatigue started immediately and it stuck around for all 102.5 miles.

Adam:
Unreal. Which is which is more taxing for you, the physical pain or getting your mind getting your mind revved up to just go anyway?

Courtney:
It was more taxing for me to fight my brain the whole time because I think the mental side of ultrarunning is huge. And what I know is that our brains can power our bodies when our bodies are tired or wanting to give up. And so, the whole time I was just trying to get my brain on board because I knew sometimes there’s nothing you can do to change the physical tiredness of your body.

But I was like, if I can get my brain on board to join this ride, then at least I can, you know, mentally stay positive and overcome this physical fatigue feeling and move forward that way. So it was really difficult though, when you’re in your head the whole time. I was like, it made the miles go by pretty slowly.

Adam:
Do you… I feel like this translates to the world beyond ultrarunning too, like, you know, I’m late on a car payment, I have a story due, like your, the ability to accept, all right, this is what has to be done. I can’t dwell on it, I have to, you know, take manageable steps. Do you work on that? Are you doing mental training like you’re doing physical training, or is this just part of what it’s like to be Courtney Dauwalter?

Courtney:
Um, it’s exactly how you described where it was like accepting the situation and then just figuring out those concrete steps. Like what can I actually do in this pickle that I’m in right now, which applies to so many things in life. But I don’t purposefully mentally train except for continuing to sign up for more and more really hard races.

Like I don’t go out for a training day and say, this is a training day for my brain. Sometimes they’ll end up that way where, you know, the weather turns and it’s crummy, or it just ends up being kind of a slog out there, and so then it is using my brain more, but I don’t intentionally do any of that.

Adam:
Do you think that who you are lends itself to managing that challenge in ultrarunning? Or is it more the other direction where your commitment to ultrarunning has sort of strengthened your ability to focus and manage those challenges?

Courtney:
It’s hard to know for sure, the chicken or the egg. Kind of thing…

Adam:
Looking for a definitive …

Courtney:
Yeah —

Adam:
— the egg, obviously.

Courtney:
Yeah.

Adam:
… the egg.

Courtney:
But I think it’s a little bit of both. I think something about just my personality, how I tick, you know, what drives me has always been there. But then ultrarunning has been a huge teacher for me in this avenue.

Adam:
Hmm. So is there something about this year that, I mean, is it is it conditions? Is it, you know, your diet? Is it the culmination of all your training to date? Is there something about this year that you think explains this success so far?

Courtney:
My hope is that every year I’m accumulating … more knowledge, more experience, more strength, more endurance, that it’s, you know, building on itself. And also that I’m not talked out here, so I’m hoping, you know, to continue to build off of this. For sure though, like just experience alone helps where you can learn what not to do, learn what works for you, dial in the systems a little bit more, even things like gear or nutrition. You know, besides the training and the racing part, it’s like ultrarunning is this huge puzzle and we get so many pieces to play with. And so it’s just continually tweaking all of the pieces.

Adam:
You at one point I read … I obviously was not on the course. You were in second and behind by about 10 minutes, which to me sounds significant. You know if especially in like a speed race there was I think you reached the elevation high point of the race and from there on, you kind of you chipped away at the leader. Was that intentional? Did at some point did you feel like, shoot, I need to up my game? I need to quicken my pace. Or did it just come together that way and you maintained the same mindset through it?

Courtney:
So, Anne-Lise Rousset is a woman who was in the race. She’s from France. She’s super strong and an incredible mountain runner. And she and I were kind of doing this accordion through different sections based on, you know, what was going better for each of us. So I was basically just buckled into my own rollercoaster ride of a race and try not to fight it, like, except that it’s really hard. Except that in these types of terrain, I’m moving slower and in these parts, I’m feeling a little bit better. And so I wasn’t based… I wasn’t gauging off of her at all. I was just like we were both riding our roller coaster rides. They happen to be near each other for a really long time, and that made it pretty cool.

Adam:
How soon upon the finish do you realize the totality of the accomplishment?

Courtney:
Um, I don’t know. Maybe the whole thing hasn’t even sunk in…

Adam:
Mmm. Haha.

Courtney:
…at all yet. Maybe, yeah, maybe it never will. I don’t know. Like we are very much, my husband and I, the type of people who like, we want to celebrate things that happened, whether it was great or not. We would have taken some days to just enjoy and decompress and celebrate life. But then we are very much like eyes-forward people where it’s like, okay, what’s next? What should we try next time? Or what could we do better? Like, how could we learn from this?

Adam:
Really, but you still must have, you must have celebrated.

Courtney:
We, yeah, I mean, we, for sure, always afterwards, even if the race goes poorly, we definitely celebrate like what we’re able to try to do and how lucky we are and take some days to just like, not think about what’s next, but it pretty quickly transitions to what can we learn.

Adam:
Hmm.

Courtney:
What can we take from this for the next thing, or what ideas did this spark for another challenge?

Adam:
What beer or indulgent delectable food do you first charge for when it’s time after a race?

Courtney:
Yeah, always a cold frosty beer right after a race sounds delicious. This time we had a fridge full of Michelob Ultra, so…

Adam:
That’s not a beer!

Courtney:
Those were going down smooth. Nachos, always something savory to eat. And then got on kind of like an Aperol spritz kick lately. Yeah.

Adam:
I have, oh my gosh, I’ve got a, this is a quick aside. It’s gonna be on the record, so I’m gonna share my secret. Have you ever heard of a spaghett? It’s…

Courtney:
No.

Adam:
…like spaghetti without the I.

Courtney:
Okay.

Adam:
My friend who is a bartender introduced me to this drink, and it is now my favorite drink. And it is the beer of your choice, a good Pilsner, a Michelob Ultra will work. And a, I think it’s an ounce of Aperol and a spritz of lemon. And I’m telling you, as weird as it might sound, it is so flippin’ good. It —

Courtney:
It sounds very…

Adam:
…out of…this world.

Courtney:
…summery.

Adam:
…refreshing. Oh…

Courtney:
Yeah.

Adam:
…my gosh. Tell me you will try one at the conclusion of this podcast.

Courtney:
Oh,

Adam:
I swear.

Courtney:
…absolutely.

Adam:
I…

Courtney:
I mean,

Adam:
…love it.

Courtney:
…what time of day is it? Perfect Spaghett time.

Adam:
Absolutely. The joys of a morning podcast. I want to let you in on the editorial spectator side of things because this happened over the weekend and we have our Slack channel and we’re talking about Courtney did this and we started to piece together. Oh wow, this is a really, really big deal. And I will tell you that… When I hear about your accomplishments because, you know, I’ve been doing this since 2015 or whatever and tracking your progress, it is impressive, but it maybe isn’t surprising, right?

In the same way, I mean, we’re from Minnesota. When you think of the Yankees, it’s like, wow, everything they do is surprising, but it’s maybe not. It’s maybe not. It’s impressive, but it’s maybe not surprising, right? They’re the Yankees. They’re great. They’re phenomenal. And I’m sorry to compare it to the Yankees, but do you carry that, that confidence or that knowledge of, you know, at the height of your game, you’re elite with you into races or is it always just like butterflies?

Courtney:
I do not carry any sort of external expectations of my performances into my races. I do carry… the expectation of myself to make sure that while I’m in this sport, while I’m lucky enough to be asking my body and my brain to be doing these things, that I give it absolutely everything I have and see what that is. But I have never stood on a start line feeling like… this is it, like this is my day, I feel amazing, like I’m gonna nail this one. I have never felt that way at a start line. It’s always very much like, are you ready to pour yourself into this and don’t forget how lucky it is to be able to do this.

Adam:
Are there are there competitors past or present that are setting new challenges for you to rise up to, or is it more Courtney against Courtney?

Courtney:
I think ultrarunning is cool because to me it never feels like it’s against competitors. It feels like we are all against this course and we are all against this hundred-mile distance or whatever the distance is, and we are all just trying to, you know, play our cards right through the day and see what happens out there.

Like, when a race is over 24 hours, there’s so much that can happen. Good and bad. And it never feels like you’re against a person in something like that. It’s just like, can I manage my day? Can I leave my best effort out there? You know, can I problem solve? And how efficiently can I move through this course?

Adam:
If you had to identify a particular strength, whether it’s mental or physical that you possess, that’s like, this is, this is one of the things that brings me to the top of the game. What would it be?

Courtney:
I have no idea, but I know that I’m definitely really focusing on and interested in the mental side. So how we can harness our brains and utilize going into the pain cave in our brains to physically do this motion?

Adam:
Speaking of the pain cave, did you have any fun hallucinations this time around?

Courtney:
You know, I didn’t and I’m so disappointed. It’s been a while…

Adam:
Ha!

Courtney:
…since I’ve made a new friend out there. Like I actually, I’m not sure if my entire year of racing, if I’ve made a new friend yet on the course.

Adam:
That is so what no, um, what was the last one? He told me a leopard and a hammock.

Courtney:
Just lounging.

Adam:
When you think back, because the Hardrock is a particularly, as I’m told, beautiful race, what do you, I know you’re fresh off of it, but what moments in that race are like vivid, vivid memories for you?

Courtney:
It was absolutely stunning out there. So we got to summit Handies Peak in the daytime in this direction, and that’s a 14,000-foot peak. So you just climb forever to get to this summit up top. It’s you know, you can see forever if you’ve never been on a 14 or it’s like, I don’t the view is indescribable. There’s just mountains all around and it feels like pretty special to be so tiny in this giant world.

And then there were some really cool fields of wildflowers that we got to run through. I also, it stands out for me, all the moments with my crew. They were out there helping me. They helped me at Western States as well. So we’ve been on this journey together. I don’t know what’s harder, crewing 200-mile races so close together or running them because…

Adam:
Hmm.

Courtney:
…crewing is a, it’s a tough job, Getting to Telluride, for example, I remember distinctly with them where it was the middle of the night, we were trying really hard to keep moving as best we could and we just nailed that aid station and got out of there pretty quickly. So moments like that, they’ll forever be in my memory of this race this year.

Adam:
You mentioned the wildflowers. It’s been kind of a, I believe like a monsoon year for, for Colorado after a lot of dryness. Was the course conducive to you having that type of performance. or did you have that speed despite the course?

Courtney:
The course was the course. It’s 102 miles no matter how you shake it. But for sure they had a really big snow year and so some years. the course is more dry. This year. there were definite sections of snow that just hadn’t melted yet and with the snow… in the like melt/freeze cycle of the daytime and nighttime, it was pretty icy. So it didn’t move super quickly and you had to be pretty careful through those parts, but then other sections of the trail were, you know, moved just fine and were dry and fairly runnable.

So, I don’t know the history of the course and its conditions and like what’s conducive or not, but the cool part is that that’s one of the things you can’t control going into the race. And so we didn’t give it two thoughts beforehand. Like it’ll just be what it is and there’s no need to fight it or be annoyed with any sections of it.

Adam:
How significant is the difference running counterclockwise versus clockwise?

Courtney:
I’ve been kind of thinking of that the last couple days because now I have completed both directions and I… I don’t know if I have a preference. I do think they run quite differently because this counterclockwise direction has a lot of like, long gradual uphills, and then really, really steep downhills. So if you reverse that, you would be going up some steeper climbs and then down really long, runnable downhills. So I don’t know. I need to give it some more thought on which one I think might be faster, but kind of cool that it flips directions each year, so it becomes this whole different course every other year.

Adam:
We talked about always having eyes forward on what’s next. Do you have the next objective?

Courtney:
I’m giving myself this week to try to…

Adam: [chuckles]

Courtney:
…just chill and then make some decisions about the remainder of the summer and the fall, because there’s a whole lot of year left still.

Adam:
Mm-hmm.

Courtney:
Be a shame to waste it. So yeah, we will see what we decide on.

Adam:
Where do you feel you are at in your career? I know it’s a weird question.

Courtney:
I hope just getting started.

Adam:
Yeah! Heck, yeah!

Courtney:
I mean, what other answer could there be? Like everyone should say that about everything, right?

Adam:
Do you feel physically good? Do you have nagging injuries? Or is your body still responding all the time?

Courtney:
I feel physically good, yeah. In the past couple years, I’ve added in some more like strength training and body maintenance stuff that I didn’t used to do at all. And I think that’s been really helpful in keeping everything balanced and happy and strong as I ask it to do more and more miles and training.

Adam:
Courtney, that’s all I got. That was a breezy interview, you nailed it.

Courtney:
Well, thank you so much.

Adam:
Let me just say on behalf of all Minnesotans, we are very proud of you.

Courtney:
Thank you.

Adam:
That is the GearJunkie podcast with Courtney Dauwalter and we are out. Wow, that was great.

Courtney:
Awesome. Thanks so much, Adam.